I’m about to embark on a topic that has been quietly brewing here on CLM behind the scenes since we started the website, and I am not taking this step lightly, nor without trepidation. To even raise the question of racial prejudice invariably leaves me wary that, with the best of intentions, maybe I will make a misstatement, or use a phrase that was acceptable last year to refer to an ethnicity but has become insulting this year without me knowing it. However, a male member recently posed a question to us that really demands an answer and an open discussion that involves all members.
Let me state clearly that this is not a question directed at Government of China policy. The Chinese government has clearly recently been treating Africa and Africans in a far less patronizing and paternalistic manner than the Western powers have done for the past two centuries of both bullying and plundering the African peoples and nations. Neither is this intended as a criticism of Chinese women for possibly harbouring such a bias. If they do have this bias, then we would hope to understand why and to be able to persuade them to overcome or discard the bias.
The Question
The member’s query was posed as follows:
“Hey, question for you? What is the deal or concern between Afro-American men and Chinese women. I am totally invisible to them, What's up?”
In initially answering that question as best I can I will be referring to those people with dark skin whose heritage originates in Africa as Blacks. I hope that means of reference is still acceptable, and if it isn’t, please forgive – no insult is intended. I have a close friend who is an Afro-American in Los Angeles, and the last time we discussed this topic he was not insulted by my reference to “blacks” and “whites”, but these things change quickly and sitting here in China I’m easily left behind. I will also be referring to Afro-Americans to mean black Americans and to Africans to mean black Africans
I am restricting this blog to CLM and not ALM for two reasons:
1. The question asked of us specified “Chinese women”, and
2. We frankly do not see many indications of this specific prejudice on ALM but as will be explained shortly, we do see signs on CLM.
As part of our beliefs in freedom of choice here on CLM and in all dating sites that we’re aware of, we offer every member to express which ethnicities they are interested in meeting. It goes without saying that even to say “I am interested in meeting only Caucasians and Asians” one is expressing a degree of ethnic prejudice. He or she is saying I am attracted only to these to ethnicities and not to others. Just the fact that members are on a website that is committed exclusively to Chinese women would suggest a prejudice against “other” women. But these are personal choices that I think we all agree are acceptable – “different strokes for different folks (or blokes)” – different people are simply attracted to different characteristics in others for reasons beyond explanation and we cannot hold it against them.
It only becomes a concern when it starts to appear that a very large portion of the members of a group (or society or culture) are inordinately attracted to one ethnicity and not attracted remotely to others, or worse, a very large portion of the members of one group are specifically not attracted to one other group and only that group. Of course it becomes extremely distressful if they are voicing their prejudices against one particular group in a way that cannot help but offend the group that is the subject of those prejudices.
First, let me say up front that based upon what we see here on CLM from comments received from some Chinese members, from some profile comments that we reject and to some degree even from some profile comments we accept, there is an obvious and undeniable degree of racial prejudice against black men by Chinese women. It certainly does NOT include all Chinese women, and the question is how pervasive is it and how should we responsibly deal with it on CLM.
The Signs
Here are the three categories of information we receive that leads us to say that there is an existing prejudice against Blacks amongst Chinese women. However, the degree that it exists in terms of how high a percentage of Chinese women hold these prejudices, and the extent that it is focused strictly against Blacks to the exclusion of other ethnicities, remains open to question.
1. We will occasionally receive comments in some Chinese womens’ profiles specifically stating strong feelings against “black men”. We have to a lesser degree received similar comments aimed at “Moslem” men. Usually the comment is simply “If you are a Black man (or a Moslem man) please do not contact me.” We have never received such a comment directed at Whites (Caucasians), Asians, Indians or any other ethnicity. We have not tracked the number of such comments we receive but it is very low. My best estimate would be that perhaps 1 in 200 to 300 lady members will submit such a comment.
We do allow comments that specify “Please contact me only if you are a White man.” or “an Asian man” or “a Black man” etc, but we do not approve comments that specify a single ethnicity that is not to contact the member. In other words the member can specify a single group to contact them, but not a single group that is NOT to contact them.
2. When we briefly were running Member Ads (which will be coming back in a much better format) of roughly 30 male members who had ads running about 24 of the ads were by Caucasians, 4 were by offshore Chinese or Asians, and 2 were by Afro-Americans. The two Afro-Americans received on average approximately 50% of the clicks that the balance of the group each received on average, and considerably fewer clicks than the lowest number received by a member from the balance of the group.
3. Today I took the time to randomly peruse 100 Chinese women members. To be included in the 100 the member must have met the following criteria:
a. She must have posted a photo as I wanted some sign the person was seriously interested in finding a man;
b. She must have been active in the last 10 days;
c. She must have completed at least 50% of the “ideal match” page of her profile: and
d. She must have completed at least 1 question on the “ideal match” page of her profile that came after the question pertaining to the ethnicities she was interested in so she could have not stopped answering without seeing the ethnicities question.
I am reporting the results of the first 100 Chinese lady members who qualified according to those criteria. After the first 100 I stopped reading profiles.
NOTE: The member had the option of picking as many ethnicities as she chose from a list of 10 so there are considerably more choices made than 100.
NOTE: The 11th category below is “None” which means the member did not choose any preferred ethnicity (but did go on to answer at least one of more questions after the ethnicity question).
The results were as follows:
African 5
Afro American 4
Asian 30
Caucasian 37
Hispanic Latino 23
Indian 4
Middle Eastern 4
Mixed Race 31
Other Islander 8
Other 19
None 42
NOTES:
* 12 Chinese women chose Caucasian as their ethnicity of choice to the exclusion of all others.
* 10 Chinese women chose Asian as their ethnicity of choice to the exclusion of all others.
* 1 Chinese woman chose Afro Americans and Africans as their chosen ethnicity to the exclusion of all others.
* 1 Chinese woman chose Other to the exclusion of all other ethnicities listed.
* 1 Chinese woman chose all ethnicities except Caucasian
* 3 Chinese woman chose all ethnicities except Afro American and African.
* 1 Chinese woman chose all ethnicities except Afro American.
* 0 Chinese women chose any of Indian, Middle Eastern, Hispanic Latino, Other Islander or Mixed Race to the exclusion of all others.
What does all this mean?
We’ll tell you what we think in my next blog in a few days. Meanwhile feel free to give us your thoughts. However, please be advised we will not approve any comments that are themselves merely an expression of a racial prejudice by the commenter.
later, after we married, i had some african american friends over for dinner. i noticed that whatever either of that couple touched my wife refused to touch again. when i inquired about it she informed me that those items were "dirty."
finally, in many conversations here over many months i have encountered the same biases you have uncovered, and to expand your piece a bit i have reason to believe the same prejudices are deeply held by chinese men against african american women.
of course, we know these perceptions are based in large part from ignorance. but we also know that a person's perception is in fact that person's reality, no matter how right or wrong it might seem to the rest of us.
I really enjoyed your article that brings to light a topic that should be discussed openly. Personally, I think that racism and prejudice, have to do with ignorance and evil. There are no "races", there is only one race, the Human race, but we come from different racial groups. I would marry a lady from any racial group, any religion, any height. I would just prefer a person with some Education and no older than 45, because I still dream of another child. My mother had 8 kids, I was the last and when I was born my father was almost my age. My older brothers and sisters were getting married already. He still saw me graduate in University and in his family he died young (unfortunately he was a chain smoker), most of my uncles and aunts reached almost 100.
My family came originally from France, Belgium and Germany. I have a sister that could not possibly be more white than she is, blonde and blue eyed. My brother in law, that was a great and very close friend of mine, a real brother, had very dark skin and dark hair. Unfortunately he passed away 3 years ago. Their children are really gorgeous. My nieces are just beautiful, and have Asian eyes. I remember going out with the kids and people amazed how exotic and beautiful they were. It is no secret that some of the most beautiful children have parents from 2 different racial groups.
Brazil had a very sad part of our History, we had slavery. Thanks God, nowadays, all Brazilians are equal and the new generations erased any former prejudice. Specially in my region, the SouthEast, Rio and Bahia, we owe a lot of our brothers that came from Africa, in terms of or food, music, sports and friendly character. Their contribution was immense for the makeup of our very soul, the way we perceive things.
I think that the only thing important in a person is his/her character, personality, integrity, dignity and honesty. Having said that, one may ask what am I doing in a site where most ladies are Asians. I am told that most Asian ladies are family oriented and I am a family person myself. I feel that the West lost some of its values in the last few years. People are more focused in career, success, etc and many relationships hit the rocks in otherwise simple circumstances, that could and should have being overcome easily, if only people were more tolerant and less selfish.... People give up very easily, do not try hard enough. This is not to say that all western ladies are like that, we are not generalizing, I am using pure statistics.
One thing that I always have trouble with, is hyphenated citizens. Why Afro-American or Afro-Canadian etc. In Brazil, we are ALL Brazilians, period. Eventually in a conversation people might mention "my parents or grandparents came from here or there", we are a country of immigrants, like Canada. But then again, this is totally irrelevant. Good people and bad people, special people and people that are a waste of oxygen, exist in any color, come from any culture, any social status, follow any religion and are present in both genders.
This harks back to 'olden times' when 'farmers and laborers' who toiled outside were often darker in colour (interestingly too, many Chinese men grow an extra ling fingernail on their small finger to show that they are 'office workers' rather than manual laborers - a laborer cannot grow long fingernails easily!! Also, a 'fat man' is considered incredibly rich because they have excess food to fill-out their belly).
Also too, the Chinese tend to describe things in very 'black and white terms' ( pun intended) and there is no middle ground! The general language is quite direct and statement driven, with little 'softening' language - when translated to English, it borders on rudeness to many.
This being said, in the city I live, there are many different ethnicities and representatives of different religions and countries and few of them seem to have difficulties finding their partner of choice in China.
I think, in general, every person in the world tends to 'seek out' people that are similar to them - preferring the 'familiar', until they discover the wonders of difference and the commonality between others and themselves.
Remembering that China is just 'opening' itself to the world and many Chinese have had little interaction with 'outsiders' personally, you are bound to get some residual bias.
That's all from a 'foreign white devil' living in China!
Small boring background on me: I was born in NYC and was raised in the "Hood" South Bronx and urban areas of Long Island. I grew up in the lifestyle: I played Hip-Hop and was a DJ and rocked the mic a few times. :) I always worked hard and unlike some of the people I hung at the time I didn't partake in illegal activities (My mom would have killed me but that wasn't the main reason). I worked my way up and educated myself and found myself in a good job as a senior Information Technology guy. Plus I wrote a book that is doing quiet well. I own a house and two vehicles... long story short... I am not the stereotype.
My experiences here on CLM and ALM are consistent with what I know of Chinese women in general. They believe that most of us are like what they see on TV and that many black people are in jail or involved in something illegal. Chinese woman are gentle and kind, and they want someone who is not only going to be good to them but be a good provider and good father. Those traits are sadly not seen on TV very often. This is not to say all Chinese women are prejudiced.
I have had many crushes on women from China but responses from them have been kinda lackluster like "You are very nice but..." and the like. I think I am a good guy and found some success in life but the color of my skin is still a barrier in most cases. I don't harbor any ill will and I am certainly not a "hater." In fact I do hope that Chinese women read this and know that we are not all cut the same way. Black men are like all men in the sense that we have hearts and we care for our loved ones. The only differences may be where we grew up or what we have seen in our lives.
So come on ladies... show some love! :)
I will say this. In America...there is NO DOUBT that Chinese American women fear or have a major dislike against Black men in America, than the China-based Chinese women. We are taboo, no question! And I always thought it was so ironic that any minority would harbor racist feelings toward another minority. Knowing full well the extent of racism felt here in America.
I've always loved the idea of meeting a Chinese American- but after a good 5 years of dating I realized one fact. Chinese women in America showed no love to Black men. It is very rare to see coupling unless they are South Asian - Some Japanese women are a bit more daring, but Chinese living here. Not so much. Discovering this fact, I got very bitter, "Forget them! If Chinese women do not like Black men, why the hell should I waste my time on them either! Screw 'em!" So I gave up on the idea. I didn't bother chatting any Asian women for a long while. Then I saw a CLM ad. I never considered Chinese women in China. I basically just toyed with the idea after clicking on their link. Sure, there was a bit of stand-offish-ness with many Chinese women, but there are some more open-minded Chinese women too. Selecting that Black/African category annoys the hell out of me. Because I do not want the connection of AFRICAN with my identity. Frankly, anything online and African screams SCAMMER to me..but I digress...There were some cool Chinese women bold enough to talk to me, a Black American. Maybe my lighter skinned made me a bit more safe to them. Who knows. But I stress that I am Black regardless. Even had to express the fact to my wife. She would say to her friends/family that I am mixed. And I had to stress to her that I am a BLACK man. We come in many shades of color from the blackest black to the whitest white, we Black Americans. Thanks to the white slave masters that raped their Black slave women, our people are no question a mix, but we always know we are BLACK in everyone's eyes.
The brotha' from NY is correct. The media does not show us in a positive light at all and frankly the rep portrayed about us is no question shown in a negatively. There are bad apples in people of all colors. But we are scorned everywhere we go. What the hell can you do? This isn't a fair world...
Expect to hear more on the matter when I can proofread my latest Black & Chinese rant... Hopefully I can take out the anger and frustration out of it because the real sad fact is that this concern/issue will never go away in our lifetime. Keep it real, brothas'...of every color.
Having been one of the persons who posed the question, it is somewhat a difficult pill to swallow, as it was and continues to be a struggle to find the match which best exemplifies what I am looking for. Further its important to try and overcome prejudice where ever it rears its head. Ignorance is somewhat bliss I guess but I would surmise those who have come to this site generally speaking are NOT your traditional hip hop afficianado but men who have made a choice.
As I stated I was and educated business owner perfectly placed to offer a good stable life to a partner. It is unsettling to know that would not be enough to generate the partner I wish to meet. But it is at least enlightening to see where the issues are. Further, it would be interesting to see the response from female members if they actually do take a look at the post.
Thank you
To be honest, I’m not surprised at John’s research result at all. But I do feel angry and frustrated every time I see things like this. I have been living in this kind of narrow minded atmosphere since always. That’s why I was so depressed and felt this world was so dark and cold all the time.
Some Chinese people can be so cold and selfish to others. I hated a lot of Chinese parents educated their children with those stupid and narrow minded ideas, include my parents. They are good people but they are just so unbelievable narrow minded and selfish! It’s sad and pathetic.
I have seen a black man and a Chinese woman happily married and they have beautiful kids. The husband is a very hard working and nice guy and the wife is very nice and sweet too. I bowling with them once and I couldn’t take my eyes off them. Beautiful family.
As in TV and movies there are some black heroes too. Some blacks are so good looking and intelligent and funny.
May be some Chinese women (and Chinese men) need to be educated properly. Stupidity comes from not well educated or worse, wrong educated.
Chinese women have told me that they do not like Black men. However they talk about Africans and African Americans differently.
But I think that Aussieghump makes some very good observations.
I was meeting with a business partner here in Toronto. She is Chinese. One of her friends was also present. I mentioned this topic and the friend from Shanghai looked at me - her eyes wide and said "Chinese women are afraid of Blacks men." I asked her if she knew any Blacks guys. She said no.
On the other hand I have seen Chinese women and Black men walking hand-in-hand here in Toronto. Of course Toronto has people from everywhere. Which is not to say that racism has not and does not raise its ugly head here in Toronto.
Having said that, and not wanting to trivialize the topic of racism, I have been told over the years that Chinese women do not like guys with beards. Interestingly enough it never stopped them dating me.
The things people say and the things people do are often so far apart.
To 'thedragon1b' and 'jag2990' I say if you truly want to find a great Chinese woman I think that you can. But you need to be proactive and I have a few steps that I recommend:
1.) Begin to learn to speak Chinese if you have not already done so. You will be amazed at how just being able to speak a few words of Chinese such as Ni hao. xie xie. bu ke qi will bring delight to people. People will smile.
2.) Get a QQ account.
3.) Read everything you can about Chinese culture and ask Chinese people questions.
4.) Learn to eat with chopsticks and learn about Chinese food. Chinese people are very often totally amazed that foreigners can eat with chopsticks.
5.) Visit China. If you spend time in China you will meet some wonderful women...there are millions of beautiful, smart, caring women in China waiting to meet a great guy like you.
When you come to Beijing call me. Email me. I am returning to Beijing in a month or so. Tell me you are going to be visiting Beijing and I will help you learn about Beijing and who knows - you might meet the Chinese woman of your dreams. And this is not a trivial offer to you. I am serious.