One of CLM's very favourite couples!
Well, here goes. I’ve been putting off writing this for too long, not because I didn’t want to write it, but because I had hoped to suggest answers to how we can best address the problems of prejudice based on ethnicity, culture or skin colour (or a combination of all 3) here on CLM. My reasons for delay have mostly to do with having raised a problem for which I have found so few solutions. The truth is I have very few answers, and the few I do have are pretty simplistic. But the best of what I have to offer has finally been put in place, and I can’t put this off any longer, so, as I said, here goes…
Member Comments
Most of the comments made by members on the first two articles in this series are on point in this matter. If you haven’t read the first two articles, and especially if you haven’t read the comments, I urge you to go back and read Part 1 and Part 2 and peruse the comments in both cases. In response to those comments I offer the following:
Doctorj: Yes, we speak of Chinese women here because that is "the other half" of the site, but we should not fail to remember that we do have Chinese male members too, and especially a large contingent of offshore Chinese men. And I agree that regarding mainland Chinese the men are at least as prejudiced as the women, if anything more so! I wish more Chinese of both genders would have joined in the discussion.
Pourquoipasamour: besides having perhaps the longest username on CLM, you stand out for other reasons. The primary one is your tremendous goodwill towards mankind. Another is the way you describe places that make me almost "need" to go see them myself. Brazil sounds wonderful and I hope to make my way there before it is too late. If only all the world was so open to all races as it sounds to be there.
Bren: You have commented twice and I'll reserve my comments for your second one except to say that after reading doctorj's response to you I hope you realize that you had misunderstood his first comment entirely. He was in no way condoning his EX Chinese wife's behaviour, but was condemning it. I suspect your anger was blinding you at that moment. I don't blame you for that anger, you had every right. But I am pleased that you took some time to cool off. As I indicated in my blog (part 2) I believe anger has no place in seeking solutions and cures to these issues. We are all victims of circumstance. Where we came from, who were our ancestors, what was their behaviour and what did they hand down to us are all matters beyond our control. And nowhere has that been felt any more than it has in China.
However, having said that anger has no place in finding the solutions, it dawns on me that perhaps it does have a place in getting people to see there is a problem. You have a following here and perhaps your hurt and anger has opened some eyes. Maybe seeing your anger and feeling your pain has caused some members to wake up, and think to themselves "If Bren, of all people, can feel so offended by and so hurt by racist feelings and beliefs, then perhaps I need to look deep inside myself and see why I harbour those beliefs".
Aussieghump: you raise several good points but what stood out for me is that when a Chinese person says "I don't like black people" it may or may not be reference to skin colour. As you say, Chinese speak in terms of 'black and white" in reference to "good and evil" (or "ying and yang"). When a Chinese person says I don't like "black" people it is as likely they mean "bad" people as it is they mean "people with dark skin". This is derived from the same ancient fears handed down in every culture that relate to the darkness of night and the light of day. And for the many Chinese who are now prejudiced against "black" people because their skin is dark that prejudice frequently derives from those early primitive beliefs that generally black means bad and white means good. It is unfortunate but true that the world over people of dark skin have suffered prejudice as a result of those same primitive beliefs handed down from our ancestors, whether those ancestors were white, yellow or red.
Anonymous: Your response is extremely gracious and generous. In your place I am not sure I could be so kind. In fact though, your response is the right one. Perhaps the only one. Chinese are not to blame as individuals for their failure to appreciate the great and diverse qualities possessed by all races, ethnicities or cultures. No society in the world that I know of has been so completely cut off from the rest of the world as China. If you take the total time that there has been a "Chinese" people and call it 24 hours, then the total amount of time in which more than 1 in 10,000 Chinese people have had any chance to even be near a foreigner is about the last 8 minutes. The total time in which the average Chinese person might even imagine a chance to say hello to a foreigner is measurable in the last few seconds. They have no education whatsoever about any history but Chinese history. How, then, could we possibly expect them to be "enlightened" culturally?
In the same 24 hours of history whites and blacks have been intermingling for roughly the last 3 hours, trying to get over our self absorbed outlook on the world and to erase our prejudices. How are we doing so far?
If we have failed so miserably after having 3 hours out of 24 to adjust to each other, then how can we fault the Chinese for failing to adjust in mere seconds. They are the victims, not the villains, and what point is there in being angry at victims. Your approach to the problem is to be admired. I hope you can be patient and we don't lose you here on CLM. We need more like you.
Bren: Back to you and I will only say this - I've been waiting for more from you since reading "Expect to hear more on the matter when I can proofread my latest Black & Chinese rant..." - I think we've all been waiting. If you, with your joie di vivre (joy of living), your brilliant and entertaining outspokenness, your penchant to teach our members in a way that so many seem to delight in, combined with your experience of the very issues of which we speak... if you have little guidance to offer our Chinese members, then who does? I've no doubt this is a tired subject in your life, one you've set aside intending to just get on in life, but maybe we could ask you to just take one more look at it and give our Chinese members some suggestions on how to open their minds and their eyes to a better way of looking at the different peoples of the world.
Jag2990: you were indeed one of the first to have written us on this issue and it has become since then more and more obvious that it is an "issue". As you suggest, generally the men who come here do so because "they've made a choice" and that applies equally to the women members who have made a choice that they wish to meet and marry a "western man". So one thing you can be sure of is that the women on CLM are generally more open minded on racial issues than the average Chinese woman. I realize that this will be cold comfort, but the reality is that the vast majority of Chinese, especially those over the age of 40 or so, are prejudiced against all foreigners, whites included. Jag2990, I have recently sent you an email and have not received a reply, so if you check back in here please do contact me through service@ChinaLoveMatch.net (Attn: John).
Victoriaspirit: I appreciate your comments so much and wish that other Chinese women would have commented as well. I must say that I do not believe you should feel any shame. Certainly you are as open minded as anyone, so you cannot feel shame of self. As I've already stated above, anger over these prejudices is misplaced, and so too I think is shame. In my opinion racial or ethnic prejudice is a result of ignorance, and ignorance in turn is the result of lack of education and opportunity, not the result of evil or bad intent. If anything people who suffer such prejudices deserve our pity, because they are missing out so much on the joy to be found in the diversity of life. To me the thing most obvious about the Chinese people who suffer these prejudices (and that seems to be the majority of Chinese), like all people who suffer such prejudices, is that they seem to be universally "unhappy". I think this is proof that "ignorance is NOT bliss".
I also agree with you that this is not related to TV. There are black heroes and black villains, white heroes and white villains, and yellow heroes and yellow villains on American TV. In fact I can think of very few actors anywhere that generally set a great example for us than Denzel Washington, and my impression has been that he's very popular in China too. However, in China, in order to watch English television channels and go to American movies, you are already wealthier and more privileged than are most Chinese.
Back to you Doctorj: your second comment, specifically the remark about your ex wife's "prejudices and penchant for guilt and blame" reminds me of something the Church of Scientology teaches. I'm not a Scientologist but I have 2 close friends who are. While there are many things I question about their beliefs there are also many things that I think are well grounded. One thing that they profess is that about 20% of the human race is made up of people that take their only pleasure in the suffering of others, while about 80% are good and take pleasure in the happiness of others. They teach that one of your primary goals if you wish to enjoy a good and happy life is to remove those 20% from your environment as quickly as possible. Waste no time or effort on them and don't tolerate their attempts to dampen your happiness in any way. Your ex was certainly one of those 20%.
I strongly suspect that 20% is probably about the right estimate, and I even more strongly suspect that this is a rough proportion of good vs bad people in any race, creed, ethnic group, culture or gender. Wouldn't it be great if instead of focusing our concerns on the surface colour of our skin we would concentrate on curing the 20%, or if necessary, evicting them from Planet Earth?
Pourquoipasamour: It is interesting that as a Canadian I take much pride in Canada's diversity and its lack of racial or ethnic prejudices (although there remain a large number who cannot seem to forgive the Canadian Indian for being so badly victimized by our white forefathers). However, typically Canadian, my pride bristles slightly at your praise for, and love of, Toronto. As New York is to America, so Toronto is to Canada. You either are Torontonian and love the city immensely, or you are not Torontonian and love almost every other Canadian city more ;).
As for the Japanese in China, I suggest everyone should read The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang. I am not going to attack the Japanese for events of 70 years ago, but the Chinese generally harbour a huge grudge against them and when you read this book it's hard to blame them. It would help a lot if the Japanese government would step forward and simply apologize for acts that are really impossible to pretend didn't happen and extremely hard to forgive. As for the beheadings, there was an infamous competition between two Japanese Army officers over who could decapitate the most Chinese victims over a lengthy period of time - their victims numbered in the hundreds.
Ozcanberra: you said "a small amount of “good” knowledge can easily change a good heart and a perceptive mind". I believe deeply in the truth of this statement, and it has lead me to the one solution we are going to attempt to change the good hearts and perceptive minds of our many wonderful Chinese ladies here on CLM. We believe that sufficient good knowledge is the only missing ingredient.
6monkeyking: I can't really say anything you stated is demonstrably wrong, and most of it is sadly true, but these are statements of fact as to how things are, whereas I think what we should be discussing is how things should be, and how to bring them to be. You seem to believe that racial prejudices are wrong or misguided, but to be expressing a resignation that nothing can be done to bring about change. Yet history refutes that over and over again.
As a Canadian Chinese who has diverse friendships with Africans and others, you have a wonderful opportunity to lead our Chinese members to that "small amount of “good” knowledge (that) can easily change a good heart and a perceptive mind" as referred to by Ozcanberra.
Maybe you should pump up the positive energy within yourself and take the lead.
Anonymous member 2: your comments sadden me, as does the fact that you chose to remain anonymous and gave us no indication of where you (or your beliefs originate). I must confess that I take some offence to someone, hidden behind a mask of anonymity, declaring someone else to be "an agent of the Devil". 6monkeyking, contrary to what you suggest, seems to me to be fairly describing things as they are generally, and merely indicating his belief that such things, while unfortunate, are unchangeable - a belief he has every right to and which has not been proved wrong as of yet.
I'd be most interested to know how you define a "surge" in Afro-Sino marriages. I don't know what the exact numbers are, but if you mean there were 5 this year as compared to 3 last year then perhaps you are right and there has been a "surge". However, if you are attempting to suggest that Afro-Sino marriages are becoming commonplace then you are dramatically overstating the case.
My Own Final Comments
First, I want to say that say that my own belief is that Chinese generally and our own Chinese women on CLM are not prejudiced against Black Africans or Black Americans or persons of Black African heritage specifically. I believe, as Aussieghump (Garreth) suggests, that the prejudice is one against people of dark skin generally, and no particular race or culture. Certainly with regards to the Chinese ladies of CLM this is clear from their responses, which indicates a similarly low "preference" of Africans (5), Afro Americans (4), Indians (4) and Middle Eastern (4).
I also wish to retract my original comments that Middle Eastern people are an exception to the apparent prejudice against dark skinned people. While Middle Eastern people are "caucasian", compared to a white Scandinavians they are far from "white" and would be seen by most of us to be of tan colour, and by most Chinese, I think, to be quite dark skinned (perhaps "black" as Garreth was described upon returning to China with a healthy tan himself). Of course, we of the milk pale white skin revere those with a tan colour, but Chinese associate it with the Chinese labouring class and regard it as something to avoid. Healthwise they are turning out to be quite right, albeit for the wrong reasons.
Having made that amendment to my original thinking I suggest that it is obvious and inarguable that among the 100 profiles studied, and therefore likely among the overall group of Chinese women of CLM, there is an apparent and hard to discount prejudice against men of dark skin.
I believe that generally this prejudice is grounded in primitive, ancient and misguided beliefs handed down over many generations that are founded on two original cornerstones:
1. Darkness (night) is unknown, frightening and filled with danger and evil, hence "black is bad", while lightness is transparent and knowable, safe, secure and relatively empty of danger, hence "white is good"; and
2. Persons of dark skin originate from the peasant class and therefore must be uneducated, poor, ignorant and undesirable.
This latter point unfortunately reflects the discomforting reality that Chinese people generally seem prejudiced against dark skinned Chinese, so much so that Chinese women with dark skin openly express regret at having it and all Chinese women are drawn to anything that might "whiten" their skin, such as creams, lotions and certain edibles (most of which are useless and some of which are health threatening) and they would not be caught dead outside on a sunny day without their umbrellas.
I therefore concur that a little "good" knowledge will go a long way to opening the good hearts and changing the perceptive minds of our CLM Chinese women, who already are clearly reaching for that good knowledge as they strive to meet and marry foreign men.
Secondly, I must say that in my belief at the exact time when we might hope to see our Chinese women overcoming their prejudices towards dark skinned men, their minds are being poisoned into having those false prejudices strengthened by the fact that dating sites in general (CLM included) have suffered an onslaught of scamming efforts that is very largely generated by a group of Black Africans originating from mostly Nigeria, but also from Ghana and to some degree from Benin, Senegal and other African nations.
This group is not just poisoning dating sites but is poisoning the internet generally. We can suggest that the Chinese prejudices against dark skinned people are wrong, but it's hard to fault them for not getting over it when they are accosted daily by lying, cheating scamming scum who are simply trying to steal their money, and in doing so are wasting their time and energy and sometimes even breaking their hearts, and those scum are almost all persons of dark skin. Of course these women are mistaken to see all dark skinned men as bad because of this one brand of truly disgusting dark skinned men, but it is easy to understand why the mistake is being made, given the circumstances.
Instead of being given "good" knowledge, our women our being overwhelmed by bad knowledge, so little wonder if they don't open their good hearts and change their perceptive minds.
Possible Solutions
So what has CLM done so far to combat these inherent prejudices against dark skinned people. Not to sound vain but we think we have done more than most dating sites.
First we have fought an ongoing battle against Scammers, spending more time on that one issue than any other single issue there is, and we've gone overboard trying to educate our women members that they must protect themselves from these scum and how to do so, but also to educate them that these are a specific group of people who by coincidence have dark or black skin, and that they do not reflect the quality of dark skinned people generally.
Secondly, some time ago we recognized in Bren a remarkable character who we felt could really influence the thinking of our Chinese members through the pure force of his good character, his giving and outgoing nature and his obvious love of life. Our Chinese manager first noticed Bren because he frequently was changing his profile and his photos, but always in such positive ways. She had occasion to notice this in her position as the person who oversees approvals, and she commented to me once that she actually began checking Bren's profile every morning to see what he might have been up to, because it brightened her day so much when she saw the changes he had made.
So, we reached out to Bren and asked if he would blog for us, and much to our initial delight and our ongoing appreciation, he not only accepted, but leaped in with all his heart, and he has been a fantastic contributor for us ever since. And there is no doubt that he has been an amazing ambassador for people of dark skin, and that he has personally opened the good hearts and changed the perceptive minds of hundreds, more likely thousands, of CLM's Chinese women members as to their false prejudices. We cannot imagine CLM or the blogs without Bren.
In addition I think it's fair to say that all of our bloggers are extremely open minded and free from any ugly prejudices themselves, and they treat all members as equals, at all times. So Bren is part of a group of people of diverse backgrounds who present a great model for our Chinese members to see how easy it is to open your hearts and minds to good people regardless of ethnicity or colour.
But what can we do to improve things even more?
Frankly the only real answer I can come up with is more of the same.
First, we will relentlessly continue our efforts to rid CLM of Scammers and to educate our lady members that one pathetic group of Africans is not indicative of the quality of Africans or of dark skinned men generally.
Secondly, we have invited 3 members or former members to blog for us whom we believe are of the type of good character that cannot help but provide more "good" knowledge to our Chinese ladies that will help to open their hearts and change their minds about their false prejudices against men of dark skin.
One of those men appears not to have received our message, one is contemplating accepting, and we're delighted to introduce one of those men today as the newest blogger for CLM/ALM. We have specifically invited these men not to blog about racial prejudice specifically, but to blog about all things relating to their experiences with Chinese and Asian women, dating, travel and culture, and to their visions of life and the world at large, and finally to their experiences at online dating. We've asked them not to worry about telling Chinese women that dark skinned men are also good men, but to showing them that dark skinned men are good men by simply being good examples of that.
So there are our answers as to what we think we can do to overcome apparent prejudices of Chinese women to men of dark skin. We welcome a continuing discussion on this topic, and especially any other ideas as to other steps that might be taken to combat the problem. At the same time, we intend to carry on trying to provide a great community for ALL western men and Chinese women who are interested in finding amongst each other the great love of their lives.
Now, please post your comments and then go read our first blog of what we hope will be many by RonS. What we think is incredibly promising about RonS and his possible effect on helping our Chinese ladies open their hearts and minds to a new way of looking at men, not at their skin colour, but at the heart and soul hidden beneath, is that RonS is the member I first mentioned in this blog series who asked:
“Hey, question for you? What is the deal or concern between Afro-American men and Chinese women. I am totally invisible to them, What's up?”
After a brief dialogue in which I communicated with RonS and tried to answer his question, I discovered he had cancelled his membership. And here are his remarks he made when he did so. Most people just click “other reason” or “I found my lifemate on CLM”, etc, but RonS took the time to write:
“Disappointed with the Chinese. I come from a biased place and I have been judged by my skin color at home and do not have the time and patience to put up with it. There are some beautiful women with pure hearts here, but I was not given a chance for them to see I too have a pure heart and soul. Thank you for letting me experience your site and good luck in the future.”
His parting comment made me think we have to address this issue. We can’t let a combination of some primitive beliefs and a few really bad actors destroy the dreams of a large group of men who are good human beings, who admire Chinese women as we do, and who would make wonderful husbands, fathers, partners and lifemates. We cannot let the 20% of dark skinned people who take their joy in the hurting of others ruin things for the 80% who are good and kind and caring. Just as we do not let the 20% of white skinned people or yellow skinned people ruin things for the 80%, so too we have to try to make CLM home for the good 80% of dark skinned people.
So welcome RonS, for coming on board to help us try. You can find the introductory blog of RonS here: “When to Look Beyond the Outside”.
I'm not sure if I will write new blog about this topic or "How to TRUST the BLACK MAN". Frankly it applies to all men. How to trust any man is the real issue. Just like JohnAbbot stated, There's bad ass apples in all colors. But... BUT... BUTT (oops sorry, er, a passing distraction happened a second ago...How to avert the eyes in front of the wife! Hahehehe!)
But if I can take a moment about getting fired up a bit... New blogger, RonS (welcome to the CLM fam), he did stoke the a bit of frustration and anger when he discussed Tokyo. It reminded me of my trip there. My anger is not towards the Chinese women who may harbor such prejudices. No, it's directed towards the criminal/abusive Nigerians, Ghanians and other African scumbags that make ALL BLACK PEOPLE look bad living and thuggin' in foreign countries! Fuck you all for giving Black men a bad name! I've seen them myself in Tokyo's, Harajuku, trying to act like Black Americans. Sporting the hip hop fashion, trying to pass themselves off, trying to be "down" (or as some may better understand, "jiggy with it"). If their asses were in America they would stick out like a sore thumb. Their style is whack and they are NOT US.
But what do you expect Chinese people to think when the most Black people they experience are from Africa and the criminal few make the whole bunch look bad! I've seen how they act myself in Tokyo, China, and even Ireland! Criminal minded. And they are everywhere! Its like they are f*ckin' roaches! Spreading a seriously bad example and us Black/darker skinned folks are lumped in with the rest of them by many Chinese! ...Shit, here I am getting pissed again! Where is my drink?!?!!
GULP!
Aaaah, that's a bit better... I'll end it with this...
What the hell can you do? The Africans are there. We are here. So what can you do? Nothing! How can we convince the Chinese or Chinese women that not all colors are created equal, but should be given the fair chance to be treated equal and show their sincerity. It's a battle that will never be won. it will never go away... Never happen...but then I said the same thing about there ever being a Black American president too. (He couldn't have picked a worse time to become president after 8 years of terrorism, hell and financial chaos with BUSH.) So I should learn to never say never...
For me, right now...screw the scumbags! I got to DO ME, live my life and try to be at peace. I'm too damn old, grown and JohnAbbot is right, I'm totally burnt out on the subject of "Fight The Power!". It's nothing new, we fight the power every day.
People are people, and if you want to show your ugliness with prejudice, it is your right. But you will always be UGLY inside and out until you change for the better... :)
When those primitive forces are combined with powerful influences such as racist behaviors and attitudes modeled by our parents, then we can come to believe that our gut is god: Our primitive prejudices? Self-evident. Racial profiling? Good business and keeping the peace. Disowning our daughter because she married a black person? The honorable thing to do. And so on. These and other ugly perceptions will remain as long as they are left unexamined.
If racial prejudice stays buried and unexamined, there can be no healing of this disease. Damaging racial attitudes and actions (which includes preferential treatment of whites) must be exposed to the light of day and critically examined. Brave people and organizations like CLM do us all a service by forcing the question. The unasked question gets no answer.
Keith: As usual your comment is both clearly thought out and enunciated, and is much appreciated. Well said!
Last month, Yahoo in China, I saw an article on the forums, about the contents of the article is about Korean and Chinese cultural differences between, and Koreans look down on Chinese people, and so, after reading the article I find very interesting, and then they look down comments. At first most of them are some of China's own comments, the atmosphere is normal. But then there is a Japanese plug in. He said something in Japanese, then against China, because he's talking about involves China's toxic milk powder, and a series of corruption and credit downturn, and so very sensitive issue between the lines of China's contempt, I must admit, he mentioned the most are the facts.
Then, the climax to, a Chinese young man's question about China that the Chinese people themselves, fail to get a comment on outsiders, especially if the other is a Japanese, so the Chinese that the Japanese youth and refute each other from the beginning , in the end, only the forum both of them on the mutual name calling and personal attacks. Ironically, as the war escalated, none of them changed the other way, not even a little bit.
As a spectator, I think I can understand their mutual feelings. But I can not get involved at that time, who was involved into the war who will burn the body. As an ordinary Chinese, I love China, but I also am very confused on the situation in China. Whether pro-or anti-China, whether socialist or capitalist, or racial discrimination, there are always reasons for doing so, as long as you know what to do on their own in it, insisted there is no better than faith belief that the world already there is no absolute right and wrong points.
But - do not fantasy can change each other, which can not be done overnight. As you can not force a racial discrimination, to identify all things are equal, because in their view it is impossible to imagine and understand. We can do is to choose, choose their own companions and social circle, and we have to admit, It is precisely because we are different, so we have so colorful - life.
Ha ha ha, although I have been claiming to be white scammers cheated (and later confirmed that he is Nigerian blacks), but this does not mean anything, I cheated and will not discriminate against blacks. I think they are very industrious, very smart, liar is just a small part of it, just as not all Chinese people are good, not all white people are noble.
In China, there are many people like me, ordinary and kindness，And, no bias, at least I know persons like this.